5.03.2010

Oh holy hell. You're all gonna love this one.

I've gone back and forth about posting this or not. One part of me says that it doesn't deserve anymore attention than it's already getting (about none, on average, actually). The other part of me is a woman. And that part wants to humiliate this person in front of as many people as possible. And watch as his pathetic little ego crumbles under the first sign of public scrutiny, because he's obviously that weird kid who didn't have any friends in high school, and is trying to make up for it now.

And watch as he tries to make my problems with him about me being a female. And watch as other "alpha" men (ie good, strong men with healthy happy relationships with good, strong women) step up and tell him how pathetic they think he is, as well.

I can't even deal with this:

"Imagine being in a coffee shop, and you’re sipping on a cup of coffee (or tea) and you see a gorgeous Korean woman, walking by. But here’s the thing:

She’s not gorgeous because of her looks perse, but because of how she dresses, and how her sexy black skirt complements her long legs, resting on dark red shoes that would make any (straight) man grow a bulging banana in his pocket.

Her lips are covered in a sensual red lipstick, which, combined with her wavy dark silk hair, makes you drool your coffee back in your cup.

….mmmm……delicious…..right?

...

In any case, you decide to keep moving things forward. Let’s say you do get a date with her, and you’ve both reached a point where you both choose to make it sexual – and you find out the truth…

a truth that answers your…gut feeling…she’s a virgin!

Now don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing wrong with being a virgin.

What IS wrong is dressing in a very sexual way, and give off a sexual vibe, and THEN end up being someone completely different. In fact, being the opposite of who you are portraying.

....

In Korean culture, women are not allowed to show their sexual side as much, if at all, and most women are doomed to a life of sexual dissatisfaction (just ask around about how “good in bed” Korean boyfriends or hubbies are)."



Ignoring the obvious problems this person has with basic logic (ie, Korean women dress sexually because in Korean culture women are not allowed to show their sexual side? Critical Writing 101, please), I feel like I finally understand the Korean netizens. I want to do and say very violent things right now. In fact, I'm kind of posting this in hopes that some of you might. And I'm not ashamed of admitting that.

Scum of the motherfucking earth.

Oh my god. You've cracked it, guru. Korean women dress provocatively because they want you to ride in on your "big" "white" horse and ravage them, saving them from a life of feigned innocence and sexual dissatisfaction.

It has nothing to do with the fact that everyday they walk past thousands and thousands of Korean men, and then maybe (if they're just really, really lucky) happen across your sole scraggly ass. It has nothing to do with the fact that Korea has a culture of emphasis on appearance, and a huge obsession with fashion. It has nothing to do with the fact that Korean women can wear whatever the hell they want without justifying it to the likes of the random pathetic loner foreigner guy creeping them out by gawking at them through a coffee shop window.

It has nothing to do with the fact that Korean women don't dress provocatively, that you are a disgusting gape-mouthed pervert who singles out anything you find sexually attractive and invents elaborate fantasies about this woman who doesn't actually want anything to do with your "big" "white" "horse", and then pins it all on her unique Korean female psychology, which you, in all your genteel sophistication, have come to understand so well.

How dare she prance around making your mouth water with anticipation, while all the while not even bothering to be an actual whore?

Is this guy a teacher? The fact that this guy could be working with female students turns my stomach. It's for reasons like this that I will happily fucking submit to criminal background checks. Not because it's right that the Korean teachers don't have to do it (please don't start -- I can make that argument just as well as you can), but because creepy fucking perverts do exist. And they have no fucking place anywhere near female students. Or any other kind, for that matter.

This just scares the hell out of me. And it should piss you male readers off even more, because he's the one out there making that lovely reputation for you all.

You people go have at him. I can't. I just can't.

But I will say this, Mr. Bluemystery (???). Your life story isn't pathetic in the least. In fact, it leads me straight toward the conclusion that you really are amazing in bed. Especially this part:

"At one point, I remember crying myself to sleep for months at a time in order to get this feeling out."

That part was especially sexy. And doesn't give me the idea that you have deep rooted psychological issues at all. Also, your inclination toward viewing women as objects who exist, down to the very clothes they should be wearing, in order to satisfy your expectations doesn't lead me to believe that you would be completely shit in bed, either. You obviously know how to please a woman. It's like changing a flat, right? That having been said, since you're so curious...

Korean men bad in bed? Not from what I've seen. Maybe you've just had more experience than I have?

63 comments:

Sidney said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sidney said...

but, i just. what is this. i have no words. especially the part about his 'knowledge' of how good in bed korean men are (or aren't, according to him). and especially his 'conclusion' that the more provocative a woman dresses, the more innocent she is. and...oh, just all of it.

awful awful aaaaful. someone get him fixed.

saharial said...

eww is just about the only reaction i can come up with this early in the morning. Sounds like a real presumtious prick

Tiffani said...

Ugh, 'get him fixed' is right, Sidney.

Somehow I seriously doubt that this guy has had more than one experience with a sexily-dressed virgin 'temptress'. Apparently that one experience scarred him so badly as to justify retreating to his misogynist rantings and avoiding feeling the sting of an awkward situation ever again.

I feel sorry for that girl.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said...

Damn it. See, this is why innocent waegookin in restaurants get bats waved at them. I have no intention of dating while I'm here as I have entirely too much work to do, but I will still be dealing with the fallout from this kind of attitude.

Anonymous said...

Haha! Let's all laugh at the weird kid! Liz wants violence done to him, thats great! People in the comments are discussing mutilating his genitals! ho ho! We're terrific! I bet some of us even know Korean!

I'm no Picasso said...

Anonymous --

1. How about being man (/woman... but I'm just going to go out on a limb on this one....) enough to sign your name?

2. When the "weird kid" has rapey attitudes toward women, and talks about them like they're animals being observed in the zoo, or children who need his guidance, yeah. I'm all for taking shots at the weird kid. What's the problem?

Burndog said...

There's never someone quite so bold as the anonymous poster.

As for the actual blog...where did you read all of that? Is that a blog?

I didn't really get what his point was. A virgin can't dress well? People who aren't virgins should dress like they're about to get some?

I think the big mistake that you've made here Liz is suggesting that this guy is what makes women think men are creeps in Korea...when he's actually the reason why women mis-trust men all over the world!

How anyone could read what he wrote, and not think that he was creepy and rape minded is beyond me. Unless it's satire? Hving read it out of context, I'm going to placate myself with the thought that it's one of the greater examples of satire that the www has ever seen! Hooray for comedy!

For the record...I've never grown a bulging banana in my pocket. I've had the odd erection. I've never had an erection over a pair of dark red shoes (fetish maybe?). I also don't think that Korean women dress in a sexual way unless it's in music videos. I can count on two fingers the occassions that I've seen a Korean woman genuinely showing some cleavage...two. They wear short skirts, they wear high heels...it's because they want to look fashinable. It has nothing to do with how many bulging bananas they have thrust inside them.

As for the negative stereotypes about unfulfilled Korean women and ignorant Korean...that's par for the course here. If we foreign men chose to believe that Korean men were as awesome as we are in bed...then we'd be ashamed of the fact that they dress better than us, and spend more time on their hair!

Personally...I don't give a rats tossbag about whether Korean chaps are better or worse on the job than I am...that's neither here nor there...and I'm certainly not going to be the creepoid who asks all of my female Korean friends and co-workers whether they're being shagged well by their husband/boyfriend!!

I pray that this is satire (and I pray that I become religious so that my prayer is answered).

Tiffani said...

Great, Burndog, now I have images of thrusting bananas in my mind O_O

PD said...

damn...after reading some of his writings, i'm jealous of korean women.

listen up, ladies of different hues! next time i make an eye contact with you on the street, i want you to approach me and tell me: "you look awfully repressed. korean women just not satisfying enough for you? i'm here to help."

that would really make my day. ha!

MikejGrey said...

This is Dave of Dave's ESL forum fame's blog.

Anonymous said...

Let's recap:
In the story, Liz found someone whose writing she didn't like online. She then make a general plea for someone to "do very violent things" to him. Then a commenter criticized such an attitude. Liz then asked the commenter, whose online writing she didn't care for, to leave contact information.

Nice try! Not falling for that! :)

My point was that i think it's strange that your gut reaction upon encountering the mentally ill is to make a plea for people to harass/hurt them so that their "pathetic little ego crumbles." I'm not convinced that that course of action is effective or desirable. But hey, if it works for top high school cliques, it could work for you too.

Diana E.S. said...

Thanks for giving me yet another expat blog to hate-on. ;-)

Tiffani said...

Anon - your implication about Liz is wildly off-base. And where did you get "mentally ill" from? I don't know this blogger, but nothing from that post suggested to me that he is mentally ill. It just suggested sexist douchebag who, instead of dealing with his low self-esteem issues, attempts to exalt himself over Korean women who don't live up to his every (sexual) expectation.

It's textbook sexism. Textbook whiny, Nice Guy (TM), immature male privilege. And while I don't agree with Liz's call for violence - and I'm assuming that was largely rhetorical, Anon - this guy certainly deserves no respect, pity, or apologies for his comments.

Also your reduction of our outrage to high school clique-ish behavior is in itself sexist. If a man had written the exact same thing Liz did, you wouldn't have used a debasing comparison like that.

If you're too cowardly to put your name on your comments and proudly stand behind them, then maybe you shouldn't be making them at all.

I'm no Picasso said...

Burndog -- Of course it happens everywhere; of course it's creepy everywhere. But it's of particular concern to me here because my foreign male friends are viewed as a menace because racist Koreans view them in this exact light. And here this guy is, not just being like this, which is bad enough, but posting it on the internet for all to see. Brilliant.

The link is in the blog post. I believe it's the word "this" in "I just can't even deal with this." It's a fucking goldmine. Enjoy.

Anon -- Your inclination to view this man as a victim is disturbing. He's got all the flagship signs of a rape-minded man. If you put his insecurity above a woman's right to not be raped in priority, then I don't know what to tell you, other than I hope you don't know where I live.

As for the violence, I said that I was experiencing the desire -- not that I was going to act on it. And I stand behind it. When I see a man who can be so sexually threatening in his thinking toward women, I want to make him hurt. I want to knock him down a few pegs and show him that women are not as weak, not such easy targets as he thinks. That doesn't mean that I'm going to do it. But congratulations on the grasping at straws. As for what happens to him at the hands of others, I'm not really concerned. I'm more concerned for the women he's gawking at in cafes, thinking that their clothing is a personal promise to him of sex, or the female students he may have under his perverted, psychopathic "control" everyday, and how his fucked up way of thinking may lead to their harm someday.

But it's nice to know you empathize so much with him, rather than the potential victims that surround him. Tells a lot about you and how valuable I should find your opinion.

Burndog said...

I was just pointing out that the guy is a misogynist. He would have been one back home...and he will be one back home. As for how we're viewed by Koreans...generally the people who think that all westerner men are sleazy sex hounds don't need any supporting evidence...they will believe it anyway.

Having said all that...I read the link. It's just ridiculous isn't it? A steaming pile of poopy!

MikejGrey said...

Oh man. I know quoting stuff out of context isn't proper course for debate, etc. yadda yadda but man. Korea sure attracts some expat winners. I hope this guy isn't a teacher. I mean, yeah there are guys like this all over the world, but the expat bloggers in Korea are... special. Some sociologist should study them. This guy probably is raping women at knife point on the subway. And I bet he can't eat spicy foods! Anyhow. This. This community certainly did not help my rage levels in Korea. Do you think those guys at the Goose with the pipes, peanuts, and playing cards were all right? They seemed okay. I should have became friends with them. Again, this:

"You don’t get into serious relationships for a chance at having pussy on tap, and you don’t get into marriages for the security!

You get into them because you genuinely feel like you want one AND she has earned the right to be your girlfriend or wife!

Please stop settling. It makes men look bad, and the rest of us have to give up more liberties."

MikejGrey said...

This guy, in that one passage, seems to have imparted himself to be ambassador of men. Someone draft this fucker into a war and get him off our planet.

Reading this blog, it seems like he sort of has the mentality of the American defectors to North Korea during the war, huh?

That being said, he should probably get raped by a Korean or something.

MikejGrey said...

I'm going to have to stop reading this.

He's an expat version of one of those pick up artist guys, isn't he?

Here's what he likely looks like. http://dynamicpatents.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/the_pick_up_artist.jpg

le lapin gris said...

His blog is very disturbing.. his manipulative, "strategic" ways of bedding women (specifically Korean) is NOT normal.

asadalthought said...

Not to mention the fact that he HAS A FUCKING BOOK: http://www.datekoreanwomen.com/

The whole blog is shocking, and it only gets worse the more you read. This was on a later post:

"So now the ‘waygukin’ comes in. You are some new, different, fresh. Being open-minded and wanting to try new things in life, she might want to go out on a date with you. Hell, she might like you so much she would want to be your girlfriend!

But alas, she lives in a world that held back by obsolete ideas and beliefs."

Oh dear. I've commented on one of his posts, but so far it's still "awaiting moderation." Be reasonable and reasoned, but I would encourage people to let him know what they actually think of what he does. It's damaging.

Anonymous said...

I read his full post, and I have to agree and disagree with you I'm no Picasso. The guy does seriously have a skewed and completely moronic view on women, but I wouldn't elevate him to rapist status from that post alone. He seemed to be making the point that Korean women dress lasciviously, in his view, but that clothes aren't any indication of their actual sexual desires or interest.

He talks like clothing alone is enough to justify him getting laid and having expectations that he'll find a porn star in the sack, which does make him a douche. But you removed some of the context that would have taken the edge off of post. He had a thesis (Korean women are sexually repressed and express it through clothing, but how they dressed are in no way an indication of sexual experience), and what you posted was his illustration.

I don't want to defend the guy because I definitely don't agree with him. He's taking his narrow views that he probably brought from his conservative hometown and applied it in Korea. (I.e., all slutty looking girls to him should be sluts). He's just spouting off, and I don't think he deserves much ire or time.

Like your blog a lot I'm no Picasso.

Chris in South Korea said...

I read the post (along with dozens of other K-bloggers, so BlueMystery shouldn't feel *too* special) - next time you might want to link to it so people have at least an idea of the context.

This is by means a defense of the blogger, merely an observation of his points.

First, the part about appearing one way and acting another is correct. We may be angry at someone, yet we hold it in. We may not respect someone, but we still bow to them. Why should people act differently when they're out on dates?

Second, regarding the concept of dressing provocatively - why DOES someone dress provocatively? You (not you specifically) are going out to a bar on a Saturday night. You could wear jeans and a t-shirt to be comfy. But no - you decide to wear a cute dress, four-inch heels, and lots of makeup. Why? Because you want to. Because you like the attention. Because you want to have sex. Because you want to feel confident. I'll apologize in advance for possibly getting the answer wrong - being a straight guy means I can't read a woman's mind.

I can't believe his correlation between innocence and provocative dress - but I could possibly believe a correlation between repression and dress. One reason some people become anorexic is because it's the one thing they have control over. They use that 'control' even in ways that end up damaging them in the long run.

Look, if you want a Korean boyfriend / girlfriend / significant other, there are some different cultural rules. One of those (for many people) is don't date the waygukin. You might find the one in a hundred whose parents are cool with that, or who might become cool with that - but it is an obstacle all the same. Be yourself - enjoy their company without being cheesy or such. No need to follow pick-up artists whose routines might work once every dozen times.

I'm no Picasso said...

I *did* link to the post, guys. Look closer.

Also, as for taking things out of context, if you look at the blog more closely, there are literally hundreds of things I could have put in to make much, much, much worse. Such as how women have driven up the "value" of their "pussy" because men have let them get away with it.

If you're someone who thinks that the way a woman dresses is a fair way to judge her sexuality and what you personally can expect out of her sexually, we're just not going to agree. And I think it's funny that everyone so far that has felt the need to justify this guy in the least, or to say, "Yeah but just saying" has been male.

I think everyone expects me to be super fair and balanced all of the time. I'm not going to be with this subject. To me, men don't get as much of a say. And men don't get to decide the rules. Because we're talking about what women have the right to do without being viewed in certain ways sexually.

You all have the right to decide what a *man* gets to do to avoid being viewed in a sexually threatening manner. Oh, wait.... not something you've ever had to worry or think about before in your life? Hmm.

As for 'taking it to the level' of rape, maybe you're not aware of how common rape is. For a man, if you're a decent human being, rape seems to be some far off hardly imagined monstrosity. And a that's good. But for women, rape is not such a jump. It happens everyday out of people you would never expect it from. It's almost common enough to call a common practice. Men are largely not aware of that. Women have no choice but to be.

John said...

/sigh. I'm a guy, and maybe I just can't understand how his post can be stretched to be interpreted as only sexually threatening and not something more benign (if not stupid). It's good to hear what you have to say INP, and maybe I'll understand what I'm missing with this conversation.

As much as I dislike the guy, I interpret his full post as a very immature discussion of wanting to get laid and being frustrated. He wants to meet and easy girl, and to him, the social cues that someone is receptive to having sex is how they dress. Is that even close to justifying forcing a woman to have sex, absolutely not. But that's not what I'm reading. The blogger stated that he saw girl that he thought was sexy, he talked to her, she seemed to be interested, and when they were about to have sex, they didn't because she was a virgin and didn't want to (that's what I'm inferring anyway). No mention that he forced her, so I'm not going to assume that he did. He's just pissed that he thought he found a sex partner and was wrong. Guys looking for a lay aren't sexual predators. And women aren't sexual predators for lusting after a guy and sizing him up the same way either.

Just so we don't debate different issues, I think your problem with the post is the fact that he's saying that women shouldn't dress in a certain way, because if they put on high heels and a short skirt, the should expect sexual advances. I hope I got that right.

For me, no female characteristic or choice of clothing warrants sexual advances without consent in any situation. That being said, sexual pursuit is something different. And by pursuit, I don't mean harassment until she gives in. I mean pursuit as in testing the waters to see if she's interested in having sex and letting things progress without coercion.

I think the blogger sizing up whether a woman should be pursued based on her clothing is not necessarily wrong. Everyone factors in how the opposite sex is dressed to try to extrapolate information about their personalities. A person can have the attitude that their promiscuity shouldn't be judged based on how they're dress, but society (both men and women) judges individuals based on dress regardless. For example, if someone wanted me to find them a hooker downtown on a street corner (not that I ever would), there would definitely be people who would stand out for wearing "hooker clothes" (I'm thinking Julia Roberts a la Pretty Woman). I don't know a lot about Korea, but from what I've read in your posts, he misunderstood Korean fashion trends and hoped for a different response from the woman in his example. That seemed to be the underlying theme of his post, that he is sharing his oh-so-great discovery that the Korean female fashion trends aren't social cues for promiscuous girls.

I did a cmd+find for the part about valuing pussy in the specific post (find out the truth about why korean dress sexy) that you linked (is there more than one? They are very hard to seeing because there's no underline and the slight gray color is hard to distinguish), but didn't come across it. Maybe the guy is completely outrageous and a total misogynist, but I only read the one post and don't have any desire whatsoever to read more.

After writing the ass long post, I don't know why I'm defending this guy. I don't want to, but I kind of am. I don't even agree with him either, and his conclusions are dumb dumb dumb. I'm actually not trying to convince you either, but instead, I'm trying to understand why I'm not outraged when it's so obvious to you.

I'm no Picasso said...

John -- I appreciate your measures and thoughtful response. However, the reason why the women have reacted so strongly to this, while the men have been sort of oh yeah but just saying I'm not defending but but but is pretty obvious to me -- it's not personal for you. You've never faced a threat to your personal safety because of these issues. You've never had to go through life sizing up the things a man thinks and says, looking at him, thinking, if I get into cab with this guy, am I putting myself in danger? If I have a drink with this guy, is he going to end up forcing me to have sex with him, because he thinks I owe it to him?

I think the men don't see a lot of what the women see, because they aren't used to looking for it. They haven't been in situations where they've heard or seen a man do something, thought, oh nah it's not that, only to find out too late that, yeah, it was actually that. To you, this guy is not a potential threat. To women, he is.

Incidentally, there's a really interesting discussion revolving around consent going on over at tumblr right now, for those of you who are interested, or want to hear more about what various women have to say on the subject.

The original post that started the discussion is here:


http://lostmymindinseoul.tumblr.com/post/567329166/consent-and-confusion

My posts on the subject are here:

http://imnopicasso.tumblr.com/post/568116656/i-lost-my-mind-in-seoul-consent-and-confusion#notes

http://imnopicasso.tumblr.com/post/569130336/i-lost-my-mind-in-seoul-consent-and-confusion#notes

If you click on the "notes" link, you will see a list of all the other ten or so women who are involved in the discussion, and what they have to say on the matter. I think it's important for men to realize how much women have to think about these things. For you, it's a sort of subject in passing. For us, it's a very threatening reality, and something society has made us responsible for being aware of at all times.

That's why I've had such a strong reaction, compared to you. I think.

Tiffani said...

John and others -

I wrote an extended response to your comment on my blog, if you're interested:

http://reiseohneende.tumblr.com/post/569544176/more-sex-feminism#disqus_thread

Thaaanks :)

Tiffani said...

ALSO, I conducted a thought experiment where I flipped the gender of the object of desire...see what you think

http://reiseohneende.tumblr.com/post/569570415/flip-the-tables#disqus_thread

I'm no Picasso said...

Tiffani -- Excellent.

So yeah. To Chris especially, I'd like to re-emphasize her point: If a man decided that the way you dressed and presented yourself was "gay", and then you spent time talking to him at the bar over a few drinks, does he then have the right to assume that you're going home with him? Does that make logical sense to you? How does thinking about that situation make you feel? Real nice, fuzzy and warm inside, right?

Same same. The thought that because I decided to wear a short skirt with heels out that evening means some creep thinks I'm subliminally telling him I want him to take me home with him gives me the exact same feeling. So watch it a bit, with that thinking. My skirt has nothing to do with you, one way or another.

palladin said...

This is a classic example of making a mountain out of a mole hill. This guy is disgusting and most likely a complete loser. That does not make him a rapist nor a sexual predator. The proper term for someone like him is a douche bag and the worlds full of them, some more vocal then others.

I'm not defending him, for all I care he can go jump into traffic, but don't make him out to be some reason or example for sexual violence.

As for INP's points on men not having to worry / so on / so forth, this is something that is made up in your own mind. Perception is reality, at least from the PoV of the individual involved. Because you perceive a threat, therefor one exists, the truthfulness of that threat is not related to its perception. Seeing all men as "after something" is just as bad as myself seeing all women in the same light. Men instinctively desire sex with women, its part of the biological imperative and no one can change that (cue gay men feeling the same for men, it still a biological imperative). It doesn't mean that man will physically force himself upon the women, nor does it mean that man desires to do that. Viewing that desire as a threat is wrong, it quickly leads to the saying "all mean are rapists" which is loaded with sexism.

In short this guy is just a douche and no one should be paying him any attention. No extended discussions on what his meaning is, no vilifying him into some sort of anti-christ. He's not that important and there are things more worth the energy involved.

I'm no Picasso said...

palladin -- You have no idea what you're talking about. This isn't the first time you've said something questionable in relation to your perception of women either.

Did you seriously just say that having to worry about rape and sexual assualt is something we women have made up in our own minds?

Words fail me. It sounds to me like you must not have any daughters. If you did, you would start to see the world for what it actually is, instead of accusing women of being hysterical because you have the privilege of not being sexually assaulted based on what clothes you wear, how many drinks you have, what streets you walk down and who you stop to chat with at a party/in a bar/at a coffee shop etc.

Having sexual desire is not the same as having sexual aggression. Women know the difference. Sexual aggression is feeling you have the right to sex with a woman, even in principle, even a little bit, when she does not want to have sex with you, for absolutely any reason she deems worthy of not having that desire. Men don't always note this difference, because for them, often enough, their sexual aggression is the same as their sexual desire.

As for all men being rapists, who's making a mountain out of a molehill now? But if you think there aren't encounters we have as women almost every single day that make us uncomfortable, that we have to side step and handle with care to make sure it doesn't end up being something more serious, then you don't have enough female friends and acquaintances.

Arrogant and ignorant.

Tiffani said...

I honestly don't know how you're supposed to respond to someone like palladin. His comment is so ignorant, sexist, and frankly illogical ("Perception is reality, at least from the PoV of the individual involved. Because you perceive a threat, therefor one exists, the truthfulness of that threat is not related to its perception.") that it's very difficult to approach or dissected from a rational point of view.

For those who are interested: here is another example of institutionalized sexism that women deal with every day. Being told that you're overreacting, making things up, making mountains out of molehills, etc. is a classic way for people with privilege to silence those without it.

I don't want to alienate men who are honestly unaware of these systematic, daily occurrences. I know I've felt alienated from discussions of race, wealth, etc. because I have privileges in those areas, and that doesn't help anyone learn. But if you don't know what you're talking about, then the best advice is to close your mouth and listen.

I'm no Picasso said...

Sure enough, he'd be the same one who would turn around, point his finger and say, "You should've known, you should've known, you should've known," as soon as something actually did happen. Women can't win for losing.

It must be nice to judge all of this from the outside without having any actual emotional connection to it, to sit around and tell women what they should and shouldn't feel and ignore how many have reams and reams of stories of men (not ALL men but ENOUGH men) crossing lines left and right, willing to push it god-knows-how-far if we didn't step in, as women, and take measures to protect ourselves. How many women, *as soon* as LMMIS's post went up, immediately responded with their own stories? Almost everyone, right?

But palladin's got it all worked out, how we're just hysterical females. Lovely.

palladin said...

INP,

You just proved my point, in no way did I make light of rape or the damage it does. You get all huffy and angry then point your own fingers and put all sorts of words into my mouth, then convince yourself that you know exactly what I'm saying and what I'm not saying. That is very wrong and dishonest, you are possessed of the intelligence to know better then to do that.

My comments were in regard to your dialog on women having special considerations and such that men don't.

"You've never had to go through life sizing up the things a man thinks and says, looking at him, thinking, if I get into cab with this guy, am I putting myself in danger? If I have a drink with this guy, is he going to end up forcing me to have sex with him, because he thinks I owe it to him?

I think the men don't see a lot of what the women see, because they aren't used to looking for it. They haven't been in situations where they've heard or seen a man do something, thought, oh nah it's not that, only to find out too late that, yeah, it was actually that. To you, this guy is not a potential threat. To women, he is. "

This is sexist as it assumes men don't have to worry about women inflicting pain / hurting them, which is most certainly wrong. Your saying also shows that you think a women must assume every man is a potential threat and evaluate him as such. That is complete horse hockey. Men have their own worried when they search for a potential mate, whether its for short term relations or something more serious.

Then the various comments on rape and making this random internet guy out to be a sexual predator / potential rapist / creepy guy / ~insert angry stereotype here~. When the honest truth is that its just a nobody bragging about their own ignorance. If you put down your self important rage and take a step back, you would see this.

As for my supposed experience and views, you have absolutely zero idea and I prefer it that way. Please don't assume you either know me or know about me. I'll only state this, I have an extremely realist objective view on everything that divorces my personal feelings from my rational thought. So please cease with the personal attacks, I never attacked you that way.

palladin said...

Posted my commend before INP finished her last one, the one with the ridiculous notion that I'm somehow sexist. When the reality is that I'm the one of the most neutral people you will ever know. I treat women no different then men when it comes to respect / knowledge / capabilities / skill sets / professionalism / thoughts and reasoning abilities / ~insert field here~. I treat women no different then men, which means no special considerations either. You don't want to have sex with someone, then don't. A human is pressuring you to commit to sex, tell them to f*ck off. You don't need to be saved, you don't need men to be careful about letting you know where they stand on any particular issue.

You want to bring up supposed "stories" that all girls seem to have about those rapist / psychotic / bad guys. Then here is one, there was a girl I knew once (actually she moves back to Deagu recently). Extremely smart, deep thinker (I enjoy having a rational deep conversation with a partner), spoke very good English, well traveled and extremely attractive. Had a very kind and generous personality around her. We met through friends and got to know each other, during this time something felt a bit "off" but I couldn't figure it out. Ended up not pursuing it because something just wasn't right (thank god). Later I was talking to a good friend of mine about her and his gf (who was college friends with her) warned me that she was neither nice nor kind. She had a think where she would be all sweet to a guy, especially if he was in a relationship. Then after having the guy fall in love with her, she'd make him do something he typically would never do (break up, go on trip, something), then afterwords break up with him in a very cold way. Her real personality was psychotic and she enjoyed inflicting emotional pain on people. Ask around and nearly every guy has some story about some "crazy b!tch". Thankfully I dodged that bullet but I could imagine the hell she would of put me through.

For men there are very real dangers involved with women, but their typically not physical. Men don't worry about a women raping them, instead they worry about a women hurting them emotionally, or using them for money. So please don't act like a man has nothing to fear or otherwise there is no threat involved.

Tiffani said...

L.O.L. Mansplaining at its finest.

Tiffani said...

Oh look he literally just turned around and said "You should have known."

Okay I'm sorry no more feeding I'll be good :X

I'm no Picasso said...

Yeah that's pretty much the end of this one for me as well. I should've known not to get drawn into it, because he's already posted one comment here before talking about how he knows how to 'handle' Korean women. Now he's comparing getting jerked around emotionally to rape. He's got issues with women -- that's clear enough. No reason to engage further.

palladin said...

Hmm so I said I could handle Korean women? Good way to twist words to your own use. Listen you can man-hate all day and I won't stop you, but please don't try to disguise it as rational thought.

And don't even try to argue that Korean women don't play little games during early relationships. I believed its called 내숭 and you even did a post on it.

"That having been said, I have been operating largely under the understanding that, by and large, Korean men, frankly, don't do a fantastic job of handling a woman's sexuality well. A lot of that judgment, I should add, also comes from the fact that before I came to Korea, I was in a big huge liberal artist Brooklyn bubble for nearly six years. Perhaps if I had spent those six years (which are rather important ones to consider, when dealing with the subject at hand) back in my red state Southern Baptist hometown, I might not be so quick to make it a "Korean man" issue in my own mind."

Wow that sounds very sexist there ... guess you know how to handle Korean men huh.

"I'm more the type who kind of just sneers around at couples (except gay couples -- they are always the exception, and everything they do is perfect and fine by me [I don't know -- don't ask]), and is known for having "friends". In quotation marks. For the most part, I'm not exactly a fan of dating. And I'm not very good at it either, being seemingly inherently far too blunt to allow the whole song-and-dance to operate very smoothly. I also haven't had a single committed (or even semi-committed) relationship the entire time I've been in the ROK. Nor was in one for a incredibly long time before I came."

And with all your experience in dating you sure know exactly what your talking about. Guess I should of asked for your permission to have an opinion and to use critical thinking and rational thinking.

But hey at least I actually use the real things you say to form an opinion. You just invent words and idea's to put in my mouth before demonizing me.

I'm no Picasso said...

See, that's the thing with your type Palladin. You always want to accuse me of man-hating. But I don't hate men. I love love loooove men. My brother is my favorite person on the face of the planet, two of three best friends in this world are men, I work at an all boys school because I prefer boys (which even I feel guilty about), all but one of my foreign friends here in Korea are male, and for a long time, all of my Korean ones were as well. I find everything about men to be absolutely lovely, both romantically and platonically. I feel most comfortable with men, most of the time.

I just don't like people who 'handle' women, who classify women as hysterical, who put the everyday issues of being in a relationship on the level with sexual assault and rape, demonstrating a clear and disturbing ignorance of what sexual assault and rape actually are.

This isn't about me and men -- this is about me and you. I don't like *you*. Don't try to drag all the other lovely gentlemen who have expressed opinions on this post down with you.

Diana E.S. said...

"However, the reason why the women have reacted so strongly to this, while the men have been sort of oh yeah but just saying I'm not defending but but but is pretty obvious to me -- it's not personal for you. You've never faced a threat to your personal safety because of these issues. You've never had to go through life sizing up the things a man thinks and says, looking at him, thinking, if I get into cab with this guy, am I putting myself in danger? If I have a drink with this guy, is he going to end up forcing me to have sex with him, because he thinks I owe it to him?"

Amen and sing it sister. The existence of rape benefits all men. If you think you don't somehow benefit from the curtailing of women's activities and from their "reliance" on you as a "good" guy to protect them from all the baddies out there, you need to wake the eff up.

Dammit, Liz. These bastards are making me put on my swearin' hat again.

Total Bastard said...

Hmmm... your out of context quotes make it sound worse then it is. It's simply armchair psychology with a whiney bias from a sexually immature author; but then that describes 90% of blog content.

Some of his points could even be considered valid, though really badly worded, if that hadn't been cover better and with more rigor just about everywhere else in the expat K-sphere.

Also drawing extra attention to his site is not going to help clean up the white-guy image. Let him rot into obscurity.

Total Bastard said...

As an aside;

Having worked with a health service I find it interesting that everyone here seems to think that its only women who get raped, or only men who can be rapists.

Same sex rape is more common then people are willing to admit, and males being raped by women is not unheard of even if it is usually shrugged off.

I'm no Picasso said...

Why would it hurt the white guy image? He's making valid points, you say, so you deserve him.

Look. I'm going to explain this one more time, for the slow kids in the back, and then I'm done.

Who do you think rapes women? Who do you think sexually assaults women? Big scary black guys who stand on street corners screaming obscenities?

No. Pathetic men rape and sexually assault women. Because rape is not about sex -- it's about power. People rape other people to feel that they have taken back some power.

The man writing this post seems rape minded to me not because he says that a Korean girl wearing a short skirt is "delicious", but because he seems like someone who a. has a clear, well-formed grudge against women b. has an extreme dissociation with the human nature of women and c. is desperate to take back power, and the target he's chosen to do this with is women.

A number of the men responding here have demonstrated shocking ignorance about the nature of rape. If you have wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers or (someday) daughters, I'd suggest you stop shaking your heads at 'hysterical' women and their overreactions (all SIX of us here, and a number of others over at my other blog), writing their actual experiences with rape, sexual assault and sexually aggressive men off in favor of your more 'rational' male logic, and the assumption that you are smarter and more aware of the world than we are, when it comes to even our own life experiences, and instead invest some time considering what the women around you are saying as possible more valid than your assumptions about their experiences, considering that they may actual have more insight into something than you do, even though you are big strong rational men who were put on this earth to calm us all down and know better than we do.

You all think claims that this man is 'rapey' are hideous overreactions, but none of the women here so far have seen it as a stretch, or even a hysterical subject. Because we meet men everyday who have some degree of this aspect. We're not hysterical about it -- we're quite calm. Because it's just an everyday aspect of being a woman -- A man corners you on the crowded subway and continues to press into you until you find a way to move away. A man yells "hey baby! sexy!" at you over and over and over while following you down the street on the way to work. A man follows you home from the bus stop late at night (remember?). A man won't stop following you around the club, touching you without your permission. A man insists you have one more drink and let him ride back in the cab with you for your own safety.

It's everyday for us. We're not hysterical about it. You just don't like having to acknowledge it. Because, yeah, it's awful. But you get off easy, having the luxury of the fact that these conversations stay largely between women. You're not inconvenienced with them, even though 'men' are the ones who are responsible for the behavior. We women have to talk about it amongst ourselves, comfort ourselves, advise ourselves, and come up with ways to cope with and avoid sexual assault and rape, while you tell us just not to worry about it. Because, hell, you don't have to.

I'm no Picasso said...

Total Bastard -- While I understand the point you're trying to make, I find it interesting that you feel the need to make it after dismissing every woman here's point of view. So I'm not really that worried about. And I know that men get raped. I've heard those stories in my personal life as well. Glad you're aware of it because you observed it at a clinic.

Total Bastard said...

Maybe I was raped by a man then joined the 'clinic' to help others equally traumatised?

Too many generalisations in that first guys post you criticised. Too many in your own. Too many in my own comments.

We don't 'know' this guy, (while he does sound like an idiot) he really doesn't sound like he has the arrogance and sense of entitlement that would set of my alarms.

I'm no Picasso said...

Look. Because men are sometimes raped, because it obviously does happen to men, does NOT mean that men have the same experience going through this world having to anticipate, think about, protect themselves from all the fucking shit that women put up with on a daily fucking basis. Nice try at making some kind of "on the level" clever little point, but you just made yourself look extremely fucking ignorant.

Glad he doesn't set your alarms off. Glad your alarms clearly aren't as well-practiced as mine are. Enjoy that privilege (you seem to be).

Total Bastard said...

Okay. Rewind.
I know I shouldn't have played devils advocate on an emotional issue. My mistake.
Going from the gut.
This post (in particular the comments) got my attention because I felt it hit me emotionally. I hadn't even read the original guys post at that point.

What I got out of this post was "here's a douche bag with an attitude I don't like. He's probably a rapist"

How is that any different from the Anti-English spectrum's "Here's a white guy with an attitude I don't like. He's obviously here to do drugs and steal our women."?

I'm no Picasso said...

I'm not going to explain this anymore. I've already explained it about six times in the above comments. You're a grown man. Read it all over again and try to figure it out yourself.

An attitude I don't like. Fucking. Really?

Mike said...

I think any rational person can agree this guys post raises serious issues. And it seems as though Picasso's objective was to demonize him. Mission accomplished. But now that we're all done sucking each other's dicks about how we are better than him, maybe we can do something useful and try to figure out where this attitude comes from.

Its quite simple: this guy is a wannabe pickup artist. Specifically he is part of a company I will not name, because I dont want to promote them, but suffice to say they specialize in teaching expats how to bang asian chicks. I have nothing against a man wanting to improve his skills with the opposite sex but what these guys do is shady, disingenuous, and ultimately negative. Being good with women is about confidence, charisma, communication skills, and an honest desire to connect.

But what these pickup guys push is trickery and deceit. And their entire business model is based on employing internet marketing hype techniques to convince prospective customers that they have the answer to their loneliness. As a result, you have inadvertently helped their cause. For every man of honor that looks at this in disgust, there are 10 lurking that will see this and buy into this sham that the pickup artist is selling. The best medicine is to simply ignore them. They are bad for Korea, bad for women, bad for foreigners in korea, and especially bad foreigners in a relationship with a korean. Guys like this will set back international relations 50 years.

sexychic said...

I'm a Korean girl, I'm a feminist. I agree with John and palladin turns me on. Shame he doesn't live in seoul.

I'm no Picasso said...

Mike -- I'm not really sure how stopping 'sucking each other's dicks' and 'being useful' = 'just ignore it'. I'm also not really sure how 1 honest guy = 10 guys who buy into this crap.

What am sure of is, I don't feel like ignoring this. And it's strange to me how many people felt the need to put in so much time and effort criticizing what I've written here and asking me to explain myself, compared to how many people have said anything about asking him to explain himself. That is very interesting to me, indeed.

sexychic -- Maybe he'd be willing to travel? You just better make sure you're not a tease with lucious red lips, a short skirt and a V card in your back pocket.

Tiffani said...

Oh god Liz, seeing that "sexychic" sexualizes her support for palladin while calling herself a feminist makes me kind of nauseous. And I regret spending 20 minutes writing a measured response to her arguments on my blog because if you agree with palladin then you've got to be flat out lying when you say you're a feminist.

Also: welcome to rape culture. Any threat to the status quo (i.e. your post) is going to invite the hounds of hell who have a vested interest in preventing the truth from becoming common knowledge. You're obviously really educated on the subject so I'm sure you've seen it happen before. Just remember not to take it personally (not that you would, but, you know...cheer up! :P).

You're very inspiring and I'm consistently impressed by your reactions to the bullshit inane comments that get thrown your way.

I'm no Picasso said...

Tiffani -- The thing is, the overwhelming number of *people* who responded to this post, were just like, right on -- both men and women. It's just that the few who decided they needed to call me out went on the longest. That's why I don't buy Mike's analysis that for every one good man, there are ten bad. Because I see far more than one good man here, up against far fewer then ten who felt the need to even slightly defend this guy.

Also, I think sexychic is being sarcastic. Also, I wouldn't click on her link if I were you.

Anonymous said...

Wow - that much spilled ink over this? He sounds like the type of guy who would get really annoying fast, unable to have a conversation about anything that didn't involve sex. But then I get the impression this blog's creator might, too?

Sex-obsessed loser, maybe; threat to students? Me thinks you may be projecting a lot of bad experiences onto him.

I'm no Picasso said...

Anon -- You'd want your daughter in his class, then?

SC said...

Okay, Liz & Tiffani- let me get something straight here. I’m not in anyway defending the original blogger. Yes, he is a scum of the motherfucking earth. I do agree with your original post, well, largely. (“Oh my god. You've cracked it, guru. Korean women dress provocatively because they want you to ride in on your "big" "white" horse and ravage them, saving them from a life of feigned innocence and sexual dissatisfaction.”) YES.
But I don’t know why you’re labeling this guy as a rapist. As far as we’re concerned, he found out the sexy woman he was gaping at was a virgin and backed off. Although he has a retarded thought process that clearly never outgrew like, middle school, and says douchebag/scum/retarded things like “What IS wrong is dressing in a very sexual way, and give off a sexual vibe, and THEN end up being someone completely different. In fact, being the opposite of who you are portraying.” This is disgusting, but it doesn’t make him a rapist or a sexual predator. As John said, he thought she was sexy (I don’t understand why he’s automatically a gaping pervert for thinking that) and pursued her, or maybe rather the sex, but didn’t get it so came home and posted a scum-immature-whining-post on his pathetic blog.
As John said, the way people dress does tend to reflect personalities/style etc, but obviously just because a woman styles herself sexily doesn’t mean she’s begging the original blogger to fucking save her from a doomed sex life. Yes I see how if the original blogger’s thought process gets out of hand, it could be related to rape and consent – if the original blogger thought “oh wow she’s dressed sexily, of course she’s consenting sex, I’ll sex her up because I have consent” then, he would be a rapist. But that’s not the fact. I don’t know why you keep saying this guy is a potential threat or a rapist. As you said, having sexual desire is not the same as having sexual aggression. Sexual aggression is feeling you have the right to sex with a woman, even in principle, even a little bit, when she does not want to have sex with you, for absolutely any reason she deems worthy of not having that desire. YES, but the aggression was in his head! He never manifested it. As far as we’re concerned, the sexy woman did not know what the fuck was going on in his sick mind. There was no aggression shown, or perceived. mens rea and actus reus!!
Tiffani: thanks for taking the 20 minutes, I’ll get to that, but I wasn’t aware that feminists aren’t supposed express their sexual sides? Really?

I'm no Picasso said...

SC -- Before you typed out that novel, did you even bother to read the post that you're addressing? Because it seems to me you only read the part I quoted. Either that, or you're just extremely fucking thick.

I'm no Picasso said...

Oh, and one more thing, for those who are having extreme issues with reading comprehension, like SC, here: "rapist" is a different word than "rape-minded". If you still can't figure out what that means after I've specifically pointed it out, then do me a favor and go ask your favorite adult to explain it to you, instead of asking me.

Total Bastard said...

I've asked my favorite adults... there response is "huh?". So for those of us without the specific jargon/discipline/pop-psych background using a fad word then getting upset that we don't know exactly (we get the gist) what you mean isn't exactly logical

I'm no Picasso said...

Jargon?

Rape-minded. Minded. Mind. Thought process. Having a thought process related to.

Rapist. -ist. Someone who _______.

Sorry if that's too illogical for you.

Nathan said...

Nice work, INP
The guy is not someone I would want to have to spend time with; definitely not the sort of guy I'd be comfortable seeing share an elevator with any of my female rellies.

Don't let the bastard commenters get you down :)

I'm no Picasso said...

Thanks Nathan.^^