2.10.2011

Why you need to watch your mouth about rape.

As Hot Yellow Fellows put it, I can't believe I'm having to make this post. Except that I can. Because the moment the post that's spurring all of this on went up, I knew full well what was coming. Why? Because she deserved it? No. Because people are often predictable, in a really horrific, terrifying way.

I'm going to start with something simple. A very simple statement of what should be obvious fact, which every decent-hearted human being should be able to agree with. Without hesitation. Without a "however" or a "but" or a "having said that". Without a disclaimer. Without correction. Without justification. A woman should be able to wear whatever she wants, drink whatever she wants, fall asleep wherever she wants, talk to whomever she wants, take whomever she wants home, start to have sex with whomever she wants, 'lead on' whomever she wants, 'send signals' to whomever she wants and not wake up raped the next morning. There is nothing anybody on the face of this planet can do that invites, validates, excuses, causes or deserves being raped. Nothing. Ever. Under any circumstances.

Do we live in a world where women have to be careful? Yeah. We do. Why? Because people make excuses for rape for more readily than they make excuses for any other kind of disgusting behavior. No one wants to accept that. It sounds terrifying, and it's hard to believe of humankind. But it's true. If your friend were to get mugged at gunpoint walking home past dark with a wallet full of cash, would your first instinct be to inform him that he should have (not) done "x", "y" and "z"? Did he deserve to get mugged? Was he asking for it? Did he invite it? Did he bring it on himself? If you thought so, would you feel the need to tell him?

More to the point, why don't men 'need to be careful'? If your male friend met a guy at a club and in a drunken haze, let the guy into his apartment to crash out for the night, and woke up with the guy fucking him up the ass, would you tell him he should have been more careful? Or would you finally see it for the truly horrific thing that it is? When you take away the aspect of a woman needing to know better, a woman needing to watch out for herself, a woman being the one in the situation who is responsible for a man's behavior?

But whatever. I'm tired of trying to explain these kinds of things. You think she deserved it. That she had it coming. That she invited it. Fine. That's your own fucked up logic. You have to live with that. You're making your choices in reasoning out of a pathetic fear-based sense that if you can somehow make it her fault, you don't have to face up to the fact that it could very easily happen to you, or to a woman you love. But you need to keep that to yourself. And here's why: Because statistics say that it has already happened to you, or to a woman you love.

No? Am I wrong on this one? Surely if something like that had happened to someone you love, they would have told you about it. You would know. But, to the best of our knowledge on this very murky, very hesitantly reported issue, one in six women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. One in four college women report having survived rape or attempted rape since their fourteenth birthday. Do you love at least six women? Do you love four? Take a second to count up your female relatives. Ex girlfriends. Do the math for yourself.

This part is especially for the men, because I have an idea that the women already know. Or should know. We don't talk to you about this. This is an area of our reality that you are almost completely locked out of. Why? Because so many times, it's already happened. We get up the nerve to bring it up, to point it out, to speak with a loved and trusted male relative, friend or lover. And what comes out of their mouths in response? Doubt. Questions. Should-haves. Let it happen to you one time. Let yourself open up to someone about one of the most horrific things that can ever happen to a human being having happened to you, and let that person who you've loved and trusted with the most vulnerable part of you turn around and immediately question the validity of that experience, or your responsibility in that experience, and see how eager you are to even chance it happening a second time. Let that person be a person who you've trusted with your body, who is now somehow justifying the worst thing anyone ever did to it. Lay awake at night and think about what that means about his way of thinking about your body, and what rights he may or may not have in relation to it.

I know why you do it. I know you don't want to think about the fact that one in six women is sexually assaulted, and 99% of rape is perpetrated by men. I know you don't want to think about what that does to women, in relation to men, or even worse..... what that means about the fact that you definitely know more than six men. I know you don't want to think about how your mom, plus your grandmother, plus your two sisters, your girlfriend and your aunt equals six. I know you don't want to wonder, which one?

But this is reality we're dealing with. These are facts. Facts that women don't get a choice in facing. So why don't you have to? Why don't you have to take responsibility for your words and your thoughts? It's not enough to relieve the men who rape of their responsibility not to rape, but now we're supposed to excuse you from yours in how you think and talk about rape?

That's fine. Don't take responsibility for it. But know this: the next time the conversation 'hypothetically' goes there, or you post something on the internet for all to see, think about the women who are present at the table, in the room, or who read your blog, facebook, or forums. Think about what, statistically, is likely to have happened to them. Think about how it will make them feel to hear or see those words coming from you. Someone they love. Someone they've trusted. Think about how many times they've had to sit there and silently endure this 'hypothetical' conversation before, how many other men they've heard say, "Yeah, but to be fair.... " or, "I'm not saying she was asking for it, but..." Think about how much she's already lost to that one 'mistake'. That one time she had one drink too many. That one time she decided to let the wrong guy into her home. That one time she should have known better. But she didn't. And she was raped. And she had her whole world turned upside down. And she can't even tell anyone about it, because all they will do is tell her what she already knows. What she can't go back and change. About what she did not deserve. Under any circumstances. What she will spend the rest of her life coping with.

Does she need to hear you say it? Does she need to hear you say it?

Then don't say it.

50 comments:

Steve said...

Good god, it's a penis entering a vagina, not someone removing your eyes with a drill, get over yourself

I'm no Picasso said...

Steve -- Let's hope you don't learn that lesson in the form of a penis entering your ass, then. Shut your fucking epically stupid mouth and fuck off out of my blog.

Burndog said...

Steve needs a cockpunch...fucktard!

I'm no Picasso said...

Can always count on you, Burn. Your bird is a lucky one.

Steve said...

Yes, the last resort of the fool with nothing intelligent to say. Of course, I would expect no better from a 'lady' that deems to call her students 'cunts', is a chain-smoker, a drunken trollop that handles her liquor with the best of men - it is no wonder that you choose to make Korea your home; for here truly can you get away with that hideous tongue and lecherous manner of yours, for Korean men know no better, but if they did, they would choose the same path as your white brethren and avoid you like the plague.

Have no fear though, it will be a cold day in the underworld when someone would even consider raping a sailor such as yourself, so don't waste your time thinking about it and 'writing' about it, you're more suited to insulting your students and complaining about your greasy hair.

I'm no Picasso said...

Steve -- God gave you a neck, my sweet. Some might say it would be good for turning your head. Away from my blog. Although it seems I've managed to captivate you to the extent that you've read quite a bit. Considering the fact that you're so chin-dribblingly ill-equipped to reason logically that you've decided rape is about being physically attracted to the victim, or sexually desired, should I be afraid?

Eve said...

Only a man would say what Steve said. And only cowardly losers post such vile and evil comments anonymously. "Steve" is clearly a sad person, and though I feel a great deal of anger towards him because of his comments, I cannot help but pity a person who would sink to such lows. A very pitiful man.

3gyupsal said...

Thank you for writing this. After seeing what people have written on other blogs today, its obvious that this still needs to be said. I know you can't believe it, but it still needs to be said.

It needs to be spelled out in a bowl of alpha bits soup. It needs to be written on sidewalks and curb stomped into idiots who leave comments on blogs. Or anyone who has willingly or unwillingly made an excuse for rape. So thank you for the reminder, even though it should be obvious.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said...

Hey! Hey Steve! You're a right soulless piece of shit. I've seen your posts on here before and assuming you're the same "Steve" as before, I've noticed an emerging pattern. No one but you seems to care about your deliberately inflammatory, lowbrow, uneducated opinions.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot said...

On topic this time. Nothing sends me into an irrational rage spiral as quickly as men who rape, abuse or manipulate women in any way. This tends to translate into overprotectiveness at times. Got it from my dad and I will never apologize for it. I weep for a humanity that has shed so many aspects of it's barbarism but somehow clings to this one with death grip intensity.

Mikia said...

Sometimes I think that the reason that some men are still so quick to defend the rapist, is because they simply don't understand sexuality.
Think about it- historically, the men are all about spreading their DNA to create life, while a woman's job is to keep her vagina CLEAN.
When a woman has sex, I think it's a lot about trust, about choosing letting someone in; it's a very vulnerable position. So when someone, anyone, takes that choice away from you... well, it can destroy your trust.

It's no surprise that rape is a form of psychological WARFARE. So no, it's not the woman's fault.

AnnyongAnyang said...

Jesus Christ, I can't believe the things that these guys keep spewing. Disgusting. What a world we live in.

Love this post, even though I'm pissed and disheartened that it needed to be written at all.

Mr Nameless said...

I hope Steve isn't a father. It's dreadful to think that such a cretin is legally entitled to breed. He's definitely the product of some thankless tryst between the soulless dregs of humanity.

Mr Nameless said...

I hope Steve isn't a father. It's dreadful to think that such a cretin is legally entitled to breed. He's definitely the product of some thankless tryst between the soulless dregs of humanity.

Jacquie said...

Men can actually prevent rape. Men often joke about 'taking' women or 'bending her over' in their macho-ish groups. The vast majority would never think to actually act on these comments but it does breed an environment of acceptance. If one guy actually replied 'Hey man not cool' or whatever then the environment of acceptance is shattered. A would be rapist listening in on or in the group won't have an imagined peer acceptance. As my woman's studies teacher would have put it "it's peer pressure used for good"

Rachael said...

Thanks so much for this post. Though I found myself with boiling blood after investigating "what-the-who-now?".

Seriously. You are my favorite out of my blogs I read because of posts like this. I hope the day I'm able to come over to SK I can shake your hand and buy you a drink. Or three.

Hey Steve -

Legal defination aside in certain US states. Rape is not just all about penis and vagina. Or even sex. Rape is all about the friggin' power over another human being. Because what else is going on besides someone taking power away from another person, by perpetuating actions on another that that person doesn't want?

Seriously, not all about just sex. Grab some literature and educate yourself.

I'm no Picasso said...

You guys are the best. And thank you for speaking up. It's easy to start to think the worst of the world when it's nothing but complete assholes running their mouths, but to see those opinions far outweighed by People Who Get It is beyond comforting. I can't believe some of the things that have come out of people's fingertips all over the blogs in the last 48 hours, but to see that almost everyone else is equally horrified helps bring it all back into focus.

JLR said...

When I was in college, my three closest friends were all date raped. None of them reported it or told anyone outside our circle because they knew exactly what people would say to them. We can tell women to watch what you wear and where you go and at what time of night to try and avoid putting yourself in possibly dangerous situations, and maybe that's the best thing to do, self-preservation-wise. But to some how make it a requirement? If we don't have a chaperone, we aren't allowed to say no or to complain about what happens to us? If you go some where by yourself at night, if you drink a little too much, if you come on to a guy, if you wear a revealing outfit, you somehow have forfeited your RIGHT to say no? That's bullshit. And so is the fact that we even have to consider what we wear and where we go and who we are alone with. That's like saying it's my fault if I leave my house and get punched in the face by some random passer-by--well, that's what I had coming for leaving my house. buuullshit.

sorry for unloading here, but this is a particularly hot button topic for me. Thanks for saying what you did.

Burndog said...

I just think that for anyone to be 'pro-rape' is a bit fucked up.

I'm no Picasso said...

JLR -- Dead on. Where do you draw the line between what we are and aren't allowed to do before it's our fault that we get raped? The hilarious thing is, these are the same kind of people who will turn around and shout about how sexist and wrong toward women Islam is. Big picture thinkers, you see.

Burndog -- One would think! One would think that everyone would agree.

Cass said...

Your entire post is absolutely spot on. This is also something that I feel very strongly about. The amount of shite I've heard people (who I previously would have assumed to be reasonable) spew about women being partially or completely to blame.

Something that really pisses me off is how lightly attempted rape has been treated in TV shows, movies, or books recently. For example, in Gossip Girl, a main character forces himself upon two women (in the first fucking episode of that piece of shit show), and nothing is said about it in later episodes... just completely forgotten about. In Twilight, there are at least two moments where the main character is attacked by men... again, just pushed away in later chapters. It's a bit scary that teenage girls (the prime demographic for both Gossip Girl and Twilight) are being fed this bollocks.

iron said...

I'm siding with Steve on this one, you guys are all a bunch of man-hating idiots.

Seriously, you're using Twilight as the basis for your argument against rape? And what's with all the man-hating comments on here? I'm as proud of being a man as I am of being white; you self-loathing fat broads should remember that if it weren't for the white man you'd still be washing your hair in pig feces and wearing fig leaves to cover up your lice-infested bushes.

si-h said...

are these people for real? steve & iron, you two cannot be really thinking your arguments are just or valid in any way, can you? in the face of the issue of rape, none of the points you are making are valid.

Gomushin Girl said...

I'm late to the shit-fest, but oh well.
No, they're not real people. At best, they're sometimes almost human, when they're not at a keyboard in the anonymous jungle of the internet. When faced with real people, some of them start to take on the same characteristics and become a sad mimicry of a person. But they're really incomplete people, incapeable of logic, communication, or genuine emotion. They're faking it, and badly.

I'm no Picasso said...

Holy christ on a cracker. The psychos are out in full force. Iron... I'm guessing you're... single? Haha.

Burndog said...

Good God Iron! It's text entering a blog, not someone removing your eyes with a drill, get over yourself!

Thanks for the inspiration Sensitive Steve.

Burndog said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
stan said...

fact be yo dat yu guys keep makin antiman remarks yo and dat totally cool wid yu all but it not be cool 2 be a man wid needz in this dumbass ho eat yo world yo? dat hella whack yo

n 2 dat dumbass dat proud 2 be a cracka yo foo youll be mincin yo tongue on dem pale teeth yu say dat to ma ears yo hella yeah hella yo yo

I'm no Picasso said...

Haha what the hell.

stan said...

ag yo i b blazin on ma ice yo i mean to say ho eat ho world ah yo foo hella trippin yo

Burndog said...

word stan why h8rs go2 h8?

The Korean said...

I think you should put up this type of post every now and then, so that you can shine a light on these cockroaches -- just like the way my immigration-related posts tend to show all the racists that are still in our midst.

Wizelton said...

@Steve + Iron + Stan:

Go away trolls. You are desecrating your gender.

@everyone else:

There are many decent men who do not believe that it is EVER the fault of the woman/man who is raped. I know because I am one of them. Any one who tries to justify it is too stupid to even begin to comprehend what they are saying.

I was going to complain about the anti-male tone of the blog... but after reading Steve and Iron's comments, I can understand where you are coming from. And at the risk of pulling statistics out of my ass, I would like to say that the number of decent guys who are revolted by the dudes who think they can justify rape are in the majority. Though I am aware the minority group definitely has the louder voice.

Daniel G. said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
adam-cutler said...

On behalf of men who get it, I apologise.

I'm no Picasso said...

Daniel -- I assume that my readers are mature enough to realize that when I address an issue, if that issue does not apply to them, then I am not talking to them. Regardless, however, the fact that you automatically feel defensive when rape stats are mentioned seems to display to me that you maybe could benefit from what I had to say here. Speaking of specificity, maybe if you could be more specific about where there are generalizations in what I've written, an example of anything I've said being in address to all men, other than "Hey men, here's something you may not know" -- which was intended for all men, maybe I could be better able to see where you're coming from. Because at the moment, it seems as though you're taking my statement of facts backed up by statistics as me making generalizations, which makes you look like exactly what you're claiming not to be -- a man who prefers to deny the reality of the rape situation in order to not make himself uncomfortable, although women do not get the same privilege.

I'm no Picasso said...

Adam -- There's no need to apologize on the behalf of the men who get it. They, and you, have nothing to apologize for. And thank you for being an ally.

Carl said...

Another guy here. It enrages me so much that men would do such a horrible thing. And anytime I hear that a female has been raped by a man, I feel like that man should get stomped out. Men should be protecting women not attacking them.
And the other thing is that I appreciate your blog so much. Your voice comes off as a hard sharp edge cutting through dead weight. If one of my female friends had told me about this before, I might have put my foot in my mouth, deep. I would never want my response to be anything so bad or to be stupid and uncompassionate. At least, I can more appropriately, now. Rape is just wrong.

KG Jung said...

This reminds me of when I was back in college and our RA called all the guys on the floor into the common room to have a little "discussion". His purpose was to explain what the law stated about certain relations that male and female students tended to get into. It was actually pretty simple: if you are going to have sex, you need to get affirmative, verbal consent. You had to literally ask if she wanted to have sex and she had to literally say "yes" to it. Anything outside of that would be considered rape. Silence, lack of resistance, lack of a clear "NO", and claims that she was acting like she wanted it would not work as a defense. The jurisdiction that my university was in decided it wasn’t going to deal with the various BS claims that allowed rapists to get off. The burden of proof was on the guys. We better be clear in our proposition and get a clear, verbal “Yes” to it or else some of us would end up in jail and see how it feels to get raped. Not to mention, it kind of ruins the rest of your adulthood when you have a rape conviction on your record. Employers and actual decent human beings tend to seriously frown on that.

Oh and for those fucktards that think all this doesn’t apply to them in Korea, think again. If you commit a crime in a foreign country, you are subject to two laws: the laws of the country you are in and the laws of your home country. Just because you are not physically present in your home country does not mean you are not subject to your home country's laws. Not only do you get the joy of facing criminal charges and punishment in the foreign country, but you potentially get the same joy when you get back to your home country for the same charges because you have technically broken two laws with your one act. Double the punishment for the same single act . . .Yeah, Bargain!!

I'm no Picasso said...

KG Jung -- This is the second time now that you've come across as racist. Just so we're clear, the rapist in the situation in question was Korean. The woman who was raped was foreign.

I know you seem to have some issues with not wanting to face the fact that all foreign men are not heinous deviants, and not all Korean men are "just boys lol!", but I don't really want to hear about it anymore. It exhausts me when people use my arguments toward their own end without any regard for what I've actually said.

KG Jung said...

Sorry if I offended you as that certainly wasn't my intent. Quite frankly I don't see how it's relevant on what nationality a rapist or victim is. I know you aren't arguing that it should be nor am I implying that you are. A deviant act is a deviant act and should be punished as such irregardless. The whole post just reminded me of when I was in college and we were told just how serious a crime rape is.

I'm not exactly sure how you came up with me thinking that all foreign men are awful and hence I am racist. That is certainly NOT what I'm saying or even implying. I know that is certainly not the case. There are good and bad people everywhere. Race and nationality are no indication of "goodness" or "badness". If I gave the impression otherwise I do apologize. It just amazes me how anyone can argue that rape is something that a victim brought on herself and hence deserved.

Anyway, I was commenting more on what some other commentators were saying rather than your post directly. I should have made that clearer. Again, sorry if I gave the impression otherwise.

I'm no Picasso said...

The first part of your comment was very astute and very appreciated. Especially how you pointed out that such measures were necessary so as to avoid excuses, and because the situation had gotten to such a point that such extreme measures were necessary so as not to have men completely disregard their responsibility not to rape. I think that's a really difficult point for even the most socially advanced men to understand sometimes. And I'm sorry I didn't mention that before.

But it just rubbed me the wrong way that you would assume this needed to turn into a lecture specifically for foreign men in Korea. Especially considering the fucked up way the Korean media represents male ESL teachers in Korea as rapists and sexual predators. Especially considering how quick you were to defend the Korean media against its stereotyping of foreign women before, and shrug it off as "men just being men". I'm explaining this now not to beat a dead horse, but to make it a little more clear where I was coming from when I responded this morning, because I was in a rush to get out the door for work, and perhaps could have explained myself better.

KG Jung said...

"Especially considering the fucked up way the Korean media represents male ESL teachers in Korea as rapists and sexual predators. Especially considering how quick you were to defend the Korean media against its stereotyping of foreign women before, and shrug it off as "men just being men""

- I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything like that when I ask this, but are you sure you're not confusing my comment(s) with someone else's comment? I absolutely never defended the Korean media (much less mentioned it) or ever claimed 'men just being men' when it comes to something like rape. If anything, I thought I wrote the exact opposite. If I wrote anything that said that I certainly could understand why you would be angry at my past comments. In all honesty, I do not see where I wrote anything of the sort or even implied it.

I do not trust the Korean media . . . period. I don't trust it for the same reason why I don't trust the media anywhere in general: stories and so called "reporting" whose only purpose is to shock and stir crap up even if has no truth at all. It sells papers and gets ratings. The fact that such tactics spread lies and fear apparently is of no concern to them. I see it in both the Korean and Western media all the time. Also the level of evidence and documentation typical in Korean books/reports is just laughable. If I ever wrote a paper with that level of amateurism for my professors, they would have slapped me silly.

Again, I think the misunderstanding is resulting because I didn't make it clear I was responding to other commentators rather than your original posts. It's totally obvious to me what I meant, but because I didn't specify it's not necessarily as clear to others as it is to me.

Your interpretation of what I wrote is so different from what I thought I wrote it's rather shocking to me. I'll definitely be more clear. I certainly don't want anyone thinking I'm condoning racism or rape.

I'm no Picasso said...

Maybe "defending" is the wrong word. In fact, it definitely is. But. On this post: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21444271&postID=8538167714602664906 The need to point out that "Western media does it too!" and that men are just men everywhere. It seems like there's this need to always address the foreigner side of things. And you have to understand that, living as a foreigner in Korea, as someone who has very close, very dear male foreign friends here who constantly suffer from these stereotypes, it's going to set me on edge when I see that specific thing addressed in reaction to my own writing out of nowhere.

I get accused constantly on all sides of being pro and anti just about everything. At this very moment, there is a horrendous (and, in the end, kind of hilarious) conversation going on in these comments (http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=21444271&postID=6277469366752537057&page=1&token=1297668091137) based on the concept that I hate white men, because I "defend"/date Korean men. And it can be hard to keep track of it all. So forgive me if I'm a little jumpy with the comments sometimes. It seems like no matter what I say, or what position I take, even though I think I really do a decent job of being balanced and just speaking from my own position, about whatever it is I encounter in my daily experience, on one side or the other, there's always something.

The truth is, the ethnicity of a rapist doesn't matter. Which is why I thought it was weird that you would take it to the level of one specific group in the first place. When I didn't mention anything at all about ethnicity in the original post. Know what I mean?

And just in the interest of being "balanced", IDD didn't mention the specific ethnicity of her rapist in her post either, and there were more than a couple of people who responded with comments about how she shouldn't date Korean men anymore, and this was why. Which is fucked up.

KG Jung said...

Hmm, OK I think I see what you mean. My comments on that issue wasn't to defend the Korean media, but simply to point out it is hardly a Korean problem. It's an ignorant people problem. So many of what I read from expats in Korea on the Korean media and stereotyping of foreigners I see very clearly in Western countries as well. Of course in my case the target of the stereotyping isn't whites, it's non-white minorities. That's not a justification or defending the practice like some sort of tit-for-tat or some kind of You-do-crap-to-me-so-it's-ok-for-me-to-do -crap-to-you. NOT AT ALL. I'm just pointing out the same injustice is the same elsewhere, only the target is different. It's not right, but unfortunately ignorant people will act similarly no matter where they are. Nobody has a monopoly on virtue or bad practices. Racism and stereotyping is something EVERYONE has to work on.

I will admit that a lot of times many of these expat blogs are to vent about what they see wrong about whatever country they are in at the time. The complaints aren't necessarily to say the problem doesn't exist in other places like their own home countries. I think part of the comment was my venting at the venting in some of those other blogs.

In short, I wasn't trying to defend or justify any of the stereotyping/racism that goes on in Korea or elsewhere . . .quite the opposite in fact. I can only lament that so much of the racism/stereotyping that is written about in Korea is in my own home country as well.

Also, I can see now how my comments on rape sounded like they came from left field and could be misunderstood as a consequence especially when I didn't read some of those other comments from that article. Just to set the record straight: I'm definitely against rape no matter who is doing it.

I noticed all these people attacking you. I'm not trying to be one of them. If I really felt that bad about your blog I wouldn't even bother reading it. I would never bother trying to be some troll. I just find it interesting that the people who say these bad things about your blog in the comments read it anyway. I guess acting like an asshat makes them feel better about themselves.

Anyway, sorry about the misunderstanding.

I'm no Picasso said...

Yeah I understand. And I know the kinds of blogs that would push you to feel the need to mention those things. I guess I get defensive, because this isn't one of those blogs. I've put a lot of effort into really trying to understand Korea, and Korean culture, and it's honestly been the task of my life (a really rewarding one), so I'm touchy about anything that feels like an accusation there. I also am not one of those people who is fucking ignorant about what goes on in my home country. About half the friends I had growing up were living as first generation born of immigrant parents in the heart of a red state. Believe me. I know.

In the face of all this bullshit that's been going on the last few days, I would like to say thank you for being respectful even in the face of a misunderstanding. I really appreciate that.

Roboseyo said...

And here Gomushin Girl thought SHE was late to the party... now suddenly I see where the trolling came from...

but jesus christ - do these poisonous assholes google "rape is not ok: newest results" every morning to see which blogs they should seek out, to add maximum assholery to their day?

I love what you've said about "does she need to hear you say it?" - love it. Thank you.

Mr. Spock said...

I'm late to the party too and kind of ashamed to admit that as a man, I DON'T entirely get it. I have two little sisters and hundreds of girl students for whom I would like the world to be a better place, but the amount of opinion vs. facts, what is legal vs. what is moral, statistics vs. "statistics" on this issue gets me twisted in a hundred directions at once.

I have heard rape defined many different ways--but "A clear and verbal 'yes'" is a new one. If that is what it takes, I'll do it, but in a way, I still don't think it suffices. A woman can change her mind after saying "yes", can't she? One has to imagine that consent would naturally consist of verbal and non-verbal communication, honestly. This is OF COURSE not to say that wearing a short skirt is sending a non-verbal signal of implicit consent.

I am sad to see so many horrible men not even willing to engage with this dialogue, but in fact seem willing and eager to throw the efforts of women and the women's movement for decades in the proverbial trash heap. On the other hand I am not going to pretend I get it 100% like some of the other men posting here (not saying they are pretending, just that I won't). There has to be some separation of the notion of rape/sexual assault from other unpleasant sexual experiences though, right? There is a seeming willingness for some to lump an unwanted ass-grab into the same category as a rape (this is oversimplified and a bit exaggerated but stay with me) and this seems wrong because rape is really serious and the women who are victims of it need to be heard and cared for. But not all unpleasant sexual scenarios are equal--not every guy who put his tongue in your mouth in an uncouth manner is a rapist...

I hope I don't sound like the gorillas who posted above. I am just trying to add to the conversation and hopefully learn more. Please elaborate on some of these things, because honestly the stuff they would tell us in college largely didn't make sense and seemed to make us all just afraid of sex!

David said...

"I know you don't want to think about what that does to women, in relation to men, or even worse..... what that means about the fact that you definitely know more than six men."

I'm not trying to dispute the point of the post, which I generally agree with. But I do want to say that the implied figures here don't follow from the statistics you quoted earlier. The fact that 1 in 6 women have been sexually assaulted does NOT mean that 1 in 6 men have committed sexual assault, which your sentence seems to imply. That would only be the case if every woman had been assaulted by the same man. In actuality, a lot of sexual violence is perpetrated by the same men.

I just thought that should be clarified.

I'm no Picasso said...

Why did you think that should be clarified? But if we are clarifying, maybe it should be clarified that the statistics also don't take into account the fact the women who experience some form of sexual assault more than once in their lifetime, either.